Digital_Pioneer: Hi. So I've got ddx compiling without KMS, while using KMS, causing X to have an aneurysm.
AStorm: chant: shader cache, it is possible
AStorm: but should be the same effect if you just leave glxgears running for some time
idletask: sauerbraten uses the software renderer :( But OTOH I see that it is statically linked against an old Mesa version
rhodan: If I want Gallium3d I have to replace r300_dri.so with r300g_dri.so, right?
rhodan: "You have to symlink or rename lib/gallium/radeon_dri.so to lib/gallium/r300_dri.so" nvm
rhodan: For me, it's /usr/lib64/dri/
rhodan: OpenGL renderer string: Gallium 0.3 on RV515
rhodan: OpenGL version string: 2.1 Mesa 7.8-devel
rhodan: I didn't know my card supported 2.1 :P
idletask: hates statically linked binaries, especially when they have an obsolete Mesa built in
idletask: But then I should obey the rule: "Use The Source, Luke"
idletask: Now it uses the correct Mesa renderer but I just don't see the map at all :p
idletask: I just see the hand and gun plus spawned objects
idletask: applies 2008 patch and recompiles
chithead: since upgrading kernel from 2.6.32 to newest release, the following problem occurs when loading radeon drm http://pastebin.ca/1732943 I remember other people complaining about that but could not find anything in bugzilla
Scott1979: anyone in
Scott1979: anyone using fglrx for r530 chipset in ubuntu karmic
Scott1979: i am using opensource and have compiz working and am really happy with it but i want to try more wine games and im paying for cedega
Scott1979: so maybe fglrx driver will or coudbe beter cedga says no vid support
adamk_: Scott1979: fglrx will not work on an r5xx card in Karmic.
adamk_: If you want to use fglrx on that GPU, you will need to use a distribution that has an X server no newer than 1.5.*, and you should then take this conversation over to #ati
Scott1979: ok thanks for that
Scott1979: i thought as much but worth a shot
Scott1979: is there anybenifit to downgrading my x server for this
rhodan: How would I know when the g3d xorg state tracker is halfway usable?
Scott1979: i cant see any realy works fine in desktop and as i said full compiz 3d but just can get games running in wine or cedega
Scott1979: spose i need nvidia
adamk_: Scott1979: Then you need to decide if you want to use fglrx in something like Ubuntu 8.10 or report bugs for 'radeon'.
adamk_: I'm quite happy playing Morrowind, Alice, and HL2 with the open source drivers.
Scott1979: how do i report bugs for readon
Scott1979: cedega says driver not supported
adamk_: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/ Though it's usually best to ask about the problem here first.
adamk_: cedega only supports nvidia.
Scott1979: using wine do u play these games
adamk_: And I haven't used cedega in a long time as wine works just fine for my needs.
Scott1979: yes i am finding this also
Scott1979: i have wine tricks
Scott1979: and have installed most of the windows requirements to run things other windows bsed apps work fine
Scott1979: but its slow on full 3d games
Scott1979: not opensource though like neuix runs smooth as
adamk_: wine and cedega are still heavily geared towards nvidia.
Scott1979: yes i find this also
Scott1979: i upgraded my system from agp with nvidia 6600 gt and now have ati x1600 pro dang hey
Scott1979: using pciexpress ati
Scott1979: 6600 would have been nice hey
Scott1979: what do u all use please let me know video cards used
Scott1979: sound off
mokoloko: adamk_: how well hl2 works?
sharky: ATI X1650, 2600, X550, 4670. NV 5200, 5500. All my newer NVs have all died.
mokoloko: adamk_: Is it playable with directx 8.1 settings?
adamk_: I don't remember changing any directx settings... Just installed it and launched the game. Worked fine, but had some strange lighting issues on occasion.
adamk_: This is with an x850 and x1900. Haven't tried HL2 with the r600 driver.
nus: anybody happens to know which git repo has latest xf86-video-ati supporting KMS drm?
nus: BioTube: hmm, so 6.12.4 supports kms, right?
BioTube: only master
chithead: you need xf86-video-ati from git, and it must be built against libdrm with --enable-radeon-experimental-api
nus: ok, let me recheck that
nus: also, does mesa-7.7's --enable-gallium-radeon require kms enabled?
MostAwesomeDude: Gallium doesn't work without KMS.
MostAwesomeDude: Also don't do Gallium if you aren't prepared for breakage.
nus: uhh, already knee-deep in havoc (-;
GNU\colossus: hi there! I'm about to get my grandfather a new PC system, and an AMD/ATI-based machine with a 785G-chipset seems like a sane choice. Is there any chance that the GPU's video bitstream decoding support will be available with free drivers at some point of time in the future with that specific IGP?
BioTube: there isn't any support for hardware video decoding in the radeon driver AFAIK
BioTube: there don't seem to be any plans to support it either
GNU\colossus: I know that that's the case right now, yes
GNU\colossus: I see.
kdeman: 2.1 Mesa 7.8-devel (git >=30 dec 2009)
MostAwesomeDude: GNU\colossus: It'll be a while.
GNU\colossus: MostAwesomeDude: so it is a possibility?
GNU\colossus: MostAwesomeDude: is there a chance for 780G IGPs, too?
idletask: glxinfo (or glinfo) all give information about what features are supported, but is there any program that tells whether a feature is not supported/software rendered only?
BioTube: idletask: the idea of OpenGL is that an application's not supposed to know if something's supported by the hardware or not, so I doubt there's any way to do it without hacking mesa
idletask: BioTube: some Mesa demos won't launch because of missing features, though - and then glx?info do enumerate supported features
kdeman: idletask: Apps like Piglit can help
BioTube: idetask: that's different
BioTube: the presence of an extension *usually* means it's supported by the hardware
BioTube: if it's required by the version of OpenGL, on the other hand, it will be handled by the fallback if the hardware lacks support
kdeman: idletask: Mesa checks features as well up to OpenGL 2.1. Reports this in the OpenGL render string (X.Y Mesa ($VERSION)) where X.Y is the hw/sw OpenGL version supported).
idletask: BioTube: and I suppose this is known only by Mesa's internals (fallback to software rendering)?
BioTube: (unless there's some mesa-specific API for finding it out)
idletask: BioTube: well, that would be interesting, if it were possible
kdeman: idletask: What does your glxinfo info report like "X.Y Mesa 7.x.x"
kdeman: idletask: Suggest if issues with mesa demos then check issues with Mesa first...it should display at least 99% of its demos (some are platform dependent).
MostAwesomeDude: GNU\colossus: AMD won't give us that information since MS has a hand in it.
MostAwesomeDude: GNU\colossus: So somebody will have to reverse-engineer it from the Win32 drivers, probably.
nus: well, presumably, the DRM (as in rights management) clique is involved, too?
MostAwesomeDude: Kind of.
MostAwesomeDude: MS is the gatekeeper for the chain of trust in HD video.
MostAwesomeDude: It's not super-important; the most common stages of decoding can be done in shaders, and it's not like h.264 decoding's actually something anybody's going to do.
MostAwesomeDude: Suppose you did have the docs. There's no userspace prepared for it, and the kernel would need modifications.
nus: well, that's a secondary issue. the primary is geeks want performance, and if the performance gain (if at all) is non-negligible.
chithead: bridgman once said on phoronix forums that the gain from using uvd over shaders would probably not big enough to care about
mokoloko: makes wonder why uvd exist in a first place
chithead: for the lowest end cards (hd2400) and igp, it makes some sense, as these don't have much shader power
nus: HDCP, perhaps.
chithead: iirc that also works on cards with no uvd (like the original R600)
kdeman: chithead: how much shader power is recommended?
mokoloko: oh yeah 2900 didn't even have uvd
chithead: and if I am not mistaken the one r500 chipset with uvd does not fulfill content protection requirements. but I could be wrong there
chithead: kdeman: the current lowest-end card 4350 should have more than enough
idle_task: Hello again
chithead: older low-end cards like hd2400 and 780g might have problems decoding too high bitrates or several streams concurrently
idle_task: I have compiled the drm-radeon-testing branch, I have configured it so that modeset is on by default, but when I pass radeon.modeset=0 on the command line, I get IRQ problems, is that expected?
chithead: irq is only supported in kms
chithead: you can ignore the warning
idle_task: It makes all piglit demos spew warnings because of it, though :p
idle_task: OK, I have submitted the results for my card to the piglit author
idletask: So, I'm reading that the radeonhd is worked on by Novell and funded by AMD, and that it will eventually get merged
idletask: Or is it already?
chithead: no, radeon and radeonhd are developed separately, but they share lots of code
eosie: well, radeonhd appears to be dead
idletask: eosie: not that dead, the last commit dates Dec 28
AStorm: as it should be
idletask: Well, OK, three commits in the last three weeks doesn't make the project particularly lively
idletask: I wanted to try it out but finally... No
idletask: I'll stick with radeon
idletask: A dumb question, probably... Why does KMS have an impact on 3D performance?
edgecase: i was told that the new memory manager isn't optimized
AStorm: now it is more than less :)
edgecase: how's that?
AStorm: seems to be faster than old DRI
idletask: GEM or TTM?
idletask: AStorm: err, dri2 and kms are not intrinsically linked, are they?
AStorm: dri2 is required for kms duh
edgecase: one thing I *love* about it is that it can resize desktop Virtual without changing xorg.conf and restarting X, ie when i plug in a 2nd monitor
spreeuw: AStorm: did you compare equal mesa versions?
AStorm: or rather, w/o dri2 you can't have X with kms
AStorm: spreeuw: I did :)
AStorm: actually, same mesa version
idletask: AStorm: yes, but kms is not required for dri2
AStorm: idletask: blah blah, technically yes
spreeuw: I couldnt find a performance increase myself
AStorm: but there's no reason
spreeuw: sooner slightly slower
AStorm: spreeuw: 2D performance
AStorm: 3D is same
spreeuw: with irq
spreeuw: oh 2D flipflops often
spreeuw: some builds its slower than other builds
spreeuw: over the months
spreeuw: it is howerver very stable
idletask: spreeuw: I can make it crash easily (I haven't tested that since a week, but there's a simple way)
AStorm: I was unable to make drm-linux crash myself
idletask: spreeuw: launch another X server, launch a game with wine on the new display --> BANG
spreeuw: oh I dont use that
AStorm: any other app?
spreeuw: nor wine
AStorm: multiple X servers could be nice with KMS
idletask: AStorm: I have only ever tried that with wine games
idletask: As to free software games, I have various fortunes
idletask: ioquake3 and nexuiz run flawlessly
AStorm: I bet mesa routines aren't concurrency-safe yet ;p
idletask: sauerbraten outputs garbage (renders perfectly with software rendering but then it's slow)
idletask: alienarena is slow too
idletask: But it uses hardware rendering
idletask: I'll consider the Linux "game stack" ready when I can run Oblivion as well as on Windows :p
idletask: With Gallium in the works, it may be sooner than later
AStorm: as well? you mean better ;)
idletask: "As well" would be good enough
idletask: Given my video card and system in general, I cannot ask for more ;)
spreeuw: paging through xscreensaver screensavers
spreeuw: looks very well
edgecase: so kernel SysRQ key, could it force a console, similar to how saK brings up a getty?
paxcoder: bo(0xcdbbcb0, 65536) is mapped (-1) can't valide it.
paxcoder: validated 0xcdbbcb0 [0x41F5C000, 0x41F6C000]
paxcoder: nexuiz: radeon_dma.c:210: radeonRefillCurrentDmaRegion: Assertion `dma_bo->bo->cref == 1' failed.
SnowRaptor: Hey there! Any idea on where to llok for bugs in this kind of flickering:
SnowRaptor: It happens when KMS gets enabled in boot time, and it stays so until the screen goes blank to save power. When it comes back, picture is fine and everything works OK
SnowRaptor: Tjis happens with last sunday's kernel from GIT and airlied patches
dileX_: I have a build-error with latest mesa GIT
dileX_: make: Entering directory `/home/sd/src/mesa/mesa/src/gallium/winsys/drm/radeon/dri'
dileX_: make: *** No rule to make target `../../../../../../src/mesa/libmesagallium.a', needed by `radeon_dri.so'. Stop.
soreau: dileX_: I just finished building mesa and it compiles fine here. What configure line are you using?
dileX_: soreau: I did a re-build and that one worked fine
soreau: well thanks for letting us know
dileX_: did you try radeong_drv.soß
dileX_: formely modse
dileX_: formely modesetting_drv.so
soreau: I knew what you were trying to say
soreau: I get swrast though, havent looked into it but that one time
soreau: does it work for you?
dileX_: havent tried yet
dileX_: interested in xorg.conf.d and config-udev for xorg-server
SnowRaptor: Hey, people, where should I look for data to report this bug: http://eltonfc.no-ip.org/~eltonfc/images/screenshot/IMG_3420.JPG?
SnowRaptor: The screen goes like this when KMS kicks in
SnowRaptor: and stays so until the screeen goes blank for powersaving
SnowRaptor: when it comes off blanking, everything works nice
soreau: Do you know if fbcon was loaded before radeon?
SnowRaptor: not sure
SnowRaptor: I'll check after screen goes blank ;)
SnowRaptor: soreau: how could I ckewch this? dmesg?
hYp3-dV7: anyone have remote wonder II
dileX_: lsmod | grep fbcon
SnowRaptor: dileX_: that will tell me if the module was loaded, but not if it was loaded before or after radeon
adamk_: SnowRaptor, lsmod should list the modules in the order they were loaded, shouldn't it?
dileX_: or dmesg with CONFIG_PRINTK_TIME=y set
SnowRaptor: adamk: I didn't knwo tahty
soreau: Probably wont matter either way with lsmod if its built in :)
SnowRaptor: soreau: I'm checking my config to see if it's buoltin
SnowRaptor: weird thing is that is I reboot the machine, KMS works fine from the beginning
soreau: SnowRaptor: You said the screen faults when loading kms
soreau: The first thing I would do before filing a bug report is state the problem specifically ;)
SnowRaptor: soreau: the screen faults when the resolution is changed at boot time
SnowRaptor: I guess that's when KMS kics in
soreau: I guess you are using kms as different terms then
SnowRaptor: but it happens when I turn the machine on from the off state
SnowRaptor: if I reboot it, it usually boots fine
evil_core: bzflag lag as hell on r500 for me:/
SnowRaptor: soreau: I had fbcon builtin
SnowRaptor: now I'm compiling the kernel with fbcon as a module
SnowRaptor: soreau: any idea?
soreau: SnowRaptor: Having fbcon built in means it definitely was loading before radeon so I dont see how compiling it as a module will help
soreau: unless by some oddity, fbcon is actually causing the problem
SnowRaptor: soreau: I see
SnowRaptor: anyway, the weird thing is it mostly happens when I cold-start it
edgecase: how aboutloading firmware?
SnowRaptor: if I reboot, next boot seems normal
SnowRaptor: edgecase: what about that?
edgecase: i heard here something about compling in, you might be missing firmware? KMS won't work without firmware
edgecase: ie when loading module, it can get firmware from an external file
SnowRaptor: edgecase: thatś the point, KMS works, but after the screen goes tlo a blank state
edgecase: after what?
SnowRaptor: edgecase: fter 5 minutes, the screen is shut down to save power
SnowRaptor: when I bting it back on, everything is fine
SnowRaptor: before that it looks like this:
edgecase: you mean the backlight stays on?
SnowRaptor: edgecase: no.
SnowRaptor: edgecase: during boot with KMS, tyhe screen starts in that 80x25 char format, right?
SnowRaptor: then, at some poit, the resolution changes
edgecase: yes, to native resolution of LVDS panel
SnowRaptor: instead of a resolution change, the screen keeps flickering with 2-pixel gih horizontal lines
SnowRaptor: like those
edgecase: what GPU and kernel you have?
SnowRaptor: xpress 1150, kernel 2.6.32 from GIT with airlied patches, bith from last sunday
edgecase: you sure you have right branch?
BioTube: check xorg's log
BioTube: see what it says about KMS
evil_core: nothing changes in drm-radeon-testing?
SnowRaptor: BioTube: it happens before xorg loads
evil_core: git pull says from weeks that I am up to date
edgecase: you have to use the right branch from that git repos, right after clone, it's not the right one
evil_core: last change 18 dec
evil_core: git log says that for me
SnowRaptor: just a sec
BioTube: airlied's on a vacation, so the repo's probably not getting updated
SnowRaptor: okay, everything stopped worked after I made fbcon a module.
BioTube: does modprobing it help any?
evil_core: it should be modprobed maybe before
evil_core: add it to /etc/modules and check
SnowRaptor: I'm rebuilding it as builtin
dekenx: I need some help with a r100 (Radeon 7200) and OpenGL
evil_core: and you must load radeon before starting Xorg
SnowRaptor: Again, this problem happens much beffore loading xorg
edgecase: dekenx, i have similar chip
edgecase: dekenx, what distro?
dekenx: edgecase: ubuntu 9.10 derivative, mint 8
edgecase: ok well it should work
dekenx: edgecase: I have 2 main problems
dekenx: edgecase: did u say anything?
edgecase: no, just tell us what's your 2 problem
dekenx: ok first is whenever compositing is off some apps display weird
edgecase: accel method XAA or EXA?
dekenx: fails on XAA works on EXA
edgecase: yeah, XAA is old and buggy
dekenx: ok my other main problem is OpenGL
dekenx: only in XAA and barely then
dekenx: most 3d programs just fail
edgecase: how much video ram?
dekenx: 64 I think
dekenx: unless I'm mistakes and it's 32
edgecase: that'd be surprising, r100 is old, small ram
dekenx: but I'm pretty sure it's 64
edgecase: how many screens and what res and what color depth?
edgecase: those things use ram
dekenx: one screen 1600x1200 and 24
dekenx: also tried 16
edgecase: that's a bit taxing i think...
edgecase: try 1024x768 16bit
dekenx: how come there isn't enough space when using 1024
dekenx: should I just make all the icons and such smaller?
dekenx: (Desktop I mean)
MostAwesomeDude: dekenx: Could you pastebin your Xorg.0.log?
edgecase: did you try 3d with 1024?
dekenx: sorry I'm actually not at the computer right now but will be in a bit
dekenx: edgecase: yes I have
edgecase: my 3d apps crash, but that's because i'm using KMS + bleeding edge pkgs
MostAwesomeDude: dekenx: Exactly how do 3D apps fail? Which apps are you trying?
edgecase: are you using pkgs from your distro?
dekenx: edgecase: I have also tried disabling hw tlc
edgecase: dekenx, yeah log files would be helpful
dekenx: which speeds up a test such as glxgeara
dekenx: edgecase: yes I know, sorry I'll post back here once I can
dekenx: if say I run supertuxkart that only works in XAA and is unbearable slow
dekenx: (even the menu)
edgecase: can you change game options to disable some 3d effects?
edgecase: on r100 i'd say disable everything
dekenx: no that's not it, it is such usable
dekenx: and I've tried many games
dekenx: most just quit
dekenx: or freeze
edgecase: well might those fall back to software rendering if you use effects not supported by hardware?
dekenx: ok Ill try disabling everything first, thanks
edgecase: maybe even go 800x600 16bit
edgecase: don't set Virtual desktop size either
dekenx: is there any specific I do to make my xorg.conf and better
dekenx: (ok I'll take out my virtual thanks)
edgecase: i mean make virtual 800 600 also
edgecase: to reduce memory useage
edgecase: you're not using KMS, right?
dekenx: not sure what that is
edgecase: post logs, that will tell us
dekenx: so probably no
dekenx: thanks for your help, I'll post back when I can
SnowRaptor: I reversed my kernel config to the r[evious one and now KMS won't work
SnowRaptor: nor radeon driver, properly
edgecase: ran make oldconfig?
SnowRaptor: edgecase: I just ondone what I did via make menucionfig
soreau: describe wont work
SnowRaptor: soreau: there is a bref screen flicker when the system is booting in that 80x25 char resolution
SnowRaptor: and the resolution stays that, instead of switching to the natural resolution
edgecase: init scripts changing console font?
soreau: Well I think you should try a stock .32 kernel or use drm-radeon-testing
SnowRaptor: soreau: I'm using it
SnowRaptor: last pulled dec/27
SnowRaptor: soreau: could you take a look at my log?
Reilithion: A couple of games I'd like to play crash out -- it seems the radeon driver might not like their shaders? Is there anything I can do about this?
SnowRaptor: soreau: if you could: pastebin.ca/1733546
Scott1979: anyone in to help
Scott1979: hey poly-c
Scott1979: how good are u with ati radeon driver setup
Poly-C: Not that experienced. I only have one computer running with xf86-video-ati driver at work.
Poly-C: And I am currently not at work.
Scott1979: ok cool but u use the opensource driver yes
Scott1979: not fglrx
Scott1979: i have the r530 chipset
adamk_: Scott1979: You are asking for help in both #ati and #radeon. You should ask in which ever channel is correct for the driver you are using. If you are using the open source driver, ask here, if you are using fglrx, ask on #ati
Scott1979: im using opensource at present are there any .conf tweaks to make it better
Scott1979: mor 3d support in opensource required for gaming
adamk_: Hmmm...Guess he really didn't want help.
Reilithion: Seems that way
Reilithion: Or maybe his IRC client didn't want him getting help.
Poly-C: patience is a virtue...
Reilithion: The radeon driver still seems responsible for some jitteryness on my system.
Reilithion: When the radeon driver starts, something starts happening -- it's hard for me to describe. Perhaps I lack the vocabulary. It's like some horizontal lines of pixels on the screen like to jump left or right by a small amount. It makes it look like my screen is nervous.
Poly-C: Reilithion, CRT or LCD?
Reilithion: VGA port
Poly-C: Hmm... never had that with any LCD
Reilithion: Wish I could send you video of it. It's really hard to describe.
Reilithion: I wonder if it has something to do with kernel mode setting
Hackus: Really, you shouldn't have to set anything in a xorg.conf file.
Hackus: For the open source driver anyway.
Hackus: What kernel version are you using?
Hackus: (i.e. uname -ra)
Reilithion: Hackus: Are you talking to me?
Reilithion: I don't believe I said anything about xorg.conf, but uname -ra says "Linux Kusanagi 2.6.32-gentoo #1 SMP Wed Dec 23 11:15:56 Local time zone must be set--see zic x86_64 AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5600+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux"
Hackus: Did you do a update yet?
idletask: To whomever happens to be around, I wish you a happy new year's eve!
idletask: Done here, it's 3am and 2010 is here
idletask: foresees plenty of good stuff for Linux 3D graphics in 2010
idletask: One keyword: Gallium3d
BioTube: I'll get excited when r600g gets seriously started
Scott1979: WHAT GAMES ARE U ALL RUNNING IF ANY OPENSOURCE
Scott1979: sorry for caps on
idletask: Scott1979: Nexuiz works wonderfully
Scott1979: do u actually play it
idletask: Scott1979: that's yet another FPS, but...
Scott1979: online or local
idletask: I suck at FPSes in general
Reilithion: Hackus: Did I do an update? An update of what exactly?
idletask: I wish to acquire some skills at them first, and I cannot complete local playing
Scott1979: im an xbox360 player also
Scott1979: but i am keen to get 3d games running with ubuntu but i feal my vidcard is holding me back from this
idletask: Scott1979: because of your distribution?
idletask: I run Gentoo, so I really have no problem adapting my "distribution" to my needs :p
Scott1979: gentoo with open source driver or fglrx
idletask: Open source
Scott1979: ok so why would that be differnet to ubuntu useing opensource
idletask: Gentoo has an overlay for all X related stuff which can compile and install git's latest trees
Scott1979: ok and ubuntu does not do this
idletask: Scott1979: because the packaging system in Ubuntu doesn't allow that flexibility
Scott1979: ok i get u
idletask: It comes with some drawbacks, sure
idletask: But I'm ready to pay for them
Scott1979: so u can compile what u need where comiling only works if it can creat a package for ubuntu
idletask: Knowing that eventually, what I get today will be available on "mailine" distros in a few months
Scott1979: and some donot work i know
idletask: Of course, that's not really a problem if you know how to package
Scott1979: yes true
idletask: I can do this on RPM based distros... Not on Debian based distros
idletask: But I'm sure that someone, somewhere, has done that
Scott1979: but the issue i have is that the xorg is to high to use the ati catalyst driver 9.3 for my card
Scott1979: so rolling back my xorg is an option but never done this
idletask: Yes, I don't know why, but fglrx won't allow xorg-server >1.6.5 to be installed
Scott1979: i could just reinstall ubuntu 8.10
Scott1979: yeah just but
idletask: I have tried fglrx
idletask: It gives great results but has some fatal flaws
Scott1979: i am going to get a nvidia card
Scott1979: yes not copletly bug fre is it
idletask: Well, if you have double boot with Windows, not a smart choice
Scott1979: i donot dual boot
idletask: AMD opens the specs (AMD is ATI after all), nVidia doesn't
Scott1979: i just am looking at getting a nvidia gts250
Scott1979: yes but wine is very dedicated to nvidia driver
idletask: I dual boot with Windows
idletask: Only for games
Scott1979: cedega says i can use this card
Hackus: For games either an ATI or an NVIDIA is decent. But, for Linux ATI is the way to go.
idletask: Well, maybe so but...
Scott1979: yeah i used to dual boot
Scott1979: for games
Scott1979: got sick of that
idletask: Scott1979: _do_ dual boot and keep an ATI card
Hackus: I would try Fedora 10 with the ATI proprietary driver, which works very well.
idletask: Scott1979: when Gallium3D is complete, wine will switch to it for Direct3D rendering
Scott1979: yeah i just hate windows so much i wil go with out game play as mentioned i have an xbox 360 so i an supporting microsoft but thats it
idletask: It's a question of (some) time
idletask: But it WILL happen
Scott1979: as we know xbox360 the only part of a xbox360 that is microsoft is the name printed on it
DanaG: heh, I've been mucking around with the "Function Disable" register on my ich9... and have gotten some odd stuff. Still have no smbus, despite smbus not being disabled by that register.
idletask: Scott1979: I play Oblivion and Morrowind, they don't exist for Xbox, and anyway I don't want a crippled PC
idletask: As to having a PC I might as well have a full fledged one
Scott1979: oblivion is in xbox360
Scott1979: morrowind is old for me
idletask: Scott1979: maybe so
Scott1979: played long ago on pc
idletask: Scott1979: but I'm not an "up to date" gamer either :p
Scott1979: i play the witcher now on pc
Scott1979: farcry runn for me ok but very glitchy
DanaG: weird: 00:1f.6 Signal processing controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) Thermal Subsystem (rev 03) -- and has no driver.
idletask: Scott1979: you should try nexuiz
idletask: I'm amazed as how well it works
Scott1979: im downloading now
idletask: alienarena cannot tell that much...
idletask: No, nexuiz
Scott1979: yeah i had alienarena didnt like it
idletask: I'm about to try Urban Terror as well
idletask: My final goal is to have Oblivion run flawlessly under Linux
Scott1979: urban terror how u getting that
idletask: Well, it's Free As In Beer(tm)
Scott1979: well let me tell u u will need to get a nvidia card for this
idletask: I think not
Scott1979: website to urban terror please
idletask: I have an ATI rv790, aka HD4890
DanaG: hmm, isn't "rv" normally the lower-end stuff? Or has that naming been thrown out the window?
idletask: http://www.urbanterror.net I believe
idletask: DanaG: no idea, this is just how my card shows under lspci
idletask: DanaG: and given the price I've paid it just a week ago, I doubt it is any low end :p
idletask: In any case, Nexuiz is an accomplished FPS and God does it run well
idletask: Even at max screen resolution
Reilithion: Planeshift bails out while loading shaders. Program output and dmesg here: http://pastebin.com/m797ef70e
Reilithion: Could someone tell me if this is fixable, or if it means the radeon driver itself won't cooperate?
idletask: No idea
idletask: I don't even have planeshift
Reilithion: I would really love to know why it won't run. If I had a clue, perhaps I could work toward getting it to run.
amarsh04: Reilithion, isn't Cg the nvidia-specific graphics card programming language?
Reilithion: amarsh04: It was made by nvidia, yeah. But I'm told it can be used on any graphics card.
MostAwesomeDude: Only if the drivers support it.
Reilithion: I'm also told that Planeshift has been known to work with the radeon driver. So either I'm doing something wrong, I've got incompatibilities in the software somewhere, or somebody's lying.
soreau: Reilithion: No one is lying to you. The fact is, the radeon driver is in heavy development and is not feature complete yet
DanaG: Something weird: I tried a CG-based Isosurf demo (geometry shaders), and it told me that my video drivers didn't support "vertex programs" -- and yet didn't tell me what OpenGL capability was missing.
Reilithion: soreau: Yes, I am aware. It just seems odd that so far I'm the only one who has this particular problem with that particular game.
DanaG: And this was Windows... with OpenGL 3.2.
DanaG: oh, it was "Ogre", more specifically.
MostAwesomeDude: does some googling
MostAwesomeDude: It appears that Cg shaders are precompiled to a target.
MostAwesomeDude: And ARB_vp/ARB_fp is a valid Cg target.
idletask: Happy new year's eve to everybody
idletask: It's 5:30am in 2010 here already, but it doesn't hurt
soreau: Reilithion: I think you might be the only one trying that particular game
idletask: soreau: not the only one
idletask: I'll try it too
idletask: (now that I know that it exists)
soreau: idletask: We are still waiting for the clock to strike here
Reilithion: idletask: w00t!
idletask: soreau: my wish holds on then ;)
soreau: I dont see planeshift in portage here, otherwise I might be inclined to install it for testing
idletask: Oh, another gentoo user :p
Reilithion: soreau: I found ebuilds for it on a forum
soreau: Reilithion: If I had to do that, Id rather build it manually
idletask: Maybe someone should tell the scarabeus overlay maintainer that planeshift exists
Reilithion: soreau: Well, in case you want it, http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=27667.180 is where I got my ebuilds
Reilithion: idletask: There are old ebuilds for planeshift in the Zugaina overlay
Reilithion: idletask: I'd think the easier route would be to see if the maintainer for that one is still active and get them to update it.
soreau: heh, why are the ebuilds under Linux Specific Issues? ;)
soreau: Sounds like you are having an issue with it indeed
Reilithion: Oh, I believe I also had to enable the zugaina overlay for a couple packages Planeshift depended on. nvidia-cg-toolkit comes to mind.
Reilithion: Also Crystalspace.
Reilithion: Or maybe not
Reilithion: Wait, no. I'm thinking of an earlier attempt. That tar.bz2 has all you need.
idletask: Well, anyway
idletask: Games with 3d capabilities are a great way to test the whole kernel/libdrm/mesa/xorg/ddx chain
idletask: (which is too long a chain imnsho)
soreau: With radeong, maybe there wont be a ddx :)
idletask: radeong? Now what is that?
soreau: it is a statetracker for gallium as I understand it
idletask: The future of everything 3D as I understand it
MostAwesomeDude: Honestly, if you want something futuristic to believe in, go with Wayland.
MostAwesomeDude: Gallium's just an easier way to write drivers.
soreau: gallium has been delivering promising results from my tests on an rv350
soreau: the mesa driver at least
MostAwesomeDude: IMO the best part of gallium is not having to duplicate radeon_exa_funcs.c into r300_blit.c.
soreau: MostAwesomeDude: Does wayland work with anything other than intel yet?
soreau: Last I looked at it, I believe that was the case
idletask: MostAwesomeDude: that's too advanced dialog for 3d newbies, as (100-epsilon)% of radeon users are - can you expand upon that?
idletask: From what I've read from more sources than I can read, X is a burden, if not _the_ burden as far as the Linux stack is concerned
soreau: idletask: This is #radeon and his statement was quite comprehensible only using context clues
soreau: by way of comparison to other real conversations that might happen here
idletask: There's even a saying, dating back from the Unix haters handbook, that goes something like "Programming with X Windows [sic] is like trying to compute the decimals of the square root of pi using only Roman numerals"
idletask: That is saying a lt
soreau: yea, that was a humorous read indeed
Scott1979: tyler u still here
idletask: And that dates back 1985
idletask: And afaics, it still holds true nowadays :/
Reilithion: And if X weren't so damn useful, we'd have dumped it by now.
idletask: In the last year of the first decade of the 21st century....
soreau: It isnt that bad to work with
idletask: Reilithion: define useful
soreau: idletask: He makes a good point actually, useful means something that can be put to good work
Reilithion: idletask: useful: that characteristic that makes it so I don't have to define useful.
soreau: but now that wayland is on the horizon, it might not be as useful as it could be in the future
idletask: Reilithion: oh, come on, look at the major toolkits in use today on the Linux desktop
idletask: Both Qt and GTK have a separate drawing engine
idletask: Which means, write this drawing engine on whatever new display engine there is and bye bye X
MostAwesomeDude: soreau: Wayland should work with any EGL, but it only works with Eagle. I'll fix that someday.
MostAwesomeDude: idletask: The two files are from the DDX and Mesa, respectively, but they're nearly identical in terms of what they do.
MostAwesomeDude: Oh, right.
idletask: Apart from remote execution (which can be easily "worked around" somewhat with VNC), X just has nothing for itself
MostAwesomeDude: "X11 is the worst windowing system, except for all the others which have been tried."
soreau: MostAwesomeDude: I usually always --disable-egl since Im told we dont use it
MostAwesomeDude: soreau: Yeah, we don't.
MostAwesomeDude: Only Wayland really uses it.
soreau: MostAwesomeDude: yet? :)
MostAwesomeDude: soreau: No, period. It's only really useful when not in a windowing system.
soreau: MostAwesomeDude: I will take your word for it
Reilithion: So, wait, I'm reading about Wayland right now
Reilithion: It doesn't look like a replacement for X
Reilithion: Am I right about that?
MostAwesomeDude: Yeah, it's only a piece. You also need a policyful rendering API and window manager.
idletask: Reilithion: nothing can be a full replacement for X
idletask: Reilithion: but X needs a painful, longstanding deserved, DEATH
MostAwesomeDude: idletask: Y, Berlin, DirectFB.
MostAwesomeDude: idletask: You're not saying anything we haven't heard before.
MostAwesomeDude: idletask: It's a lot easier to say that, than it is to do it. What would you possibly use instead?
idletask: MostAwesomeDude: by the time these three projects have been started, there was no support for running a display engine as a non root user
idletask: But things change
idletask: MostAwesomeDude: a brand new API that acknowledges that this is the 21st century? ;)
MostAwesomeDude: idletask: Sure. Suggestions welcome.
Reilithion: idletask: How about we engineer a brand new OS while we're at it? Ooo, we could write it in D!
MostAwesomeDude: I'd much rather just wait for X12.
MostAwesomeDude: Which we can probably get started on as soon as we close out all the current bugs.
idletask: Reilithion: oh no, an OS we have, and its development model proves it
MostAwesomeDude: (Not to say that that's trivial.)
idletask: Reilithion: but I see no point in a legacy burdended API that is libX11 from which not even 20% is used in today's modern desktop environement - and which is basically useless to anything 3D
idletask: I mean, why Xrender? Why EXA? Why UXA? These are all APIs to hardware accelerated stuff, and so is anything 3D - and only OpenGL natively
idletask: Just make the whole thing _work_
idletask: If that means that I only get remote execution via emulations, so what? With "modern" X servers, it's painfully slow even over a 2mbps SDSL
idletask: RDP works fine OTOH
idletask: Who's at fault?
idletask: Again, modern toolkits separate the drawing engine from the toolkit engine
idletask: Make a use of it
idletask: Scrap X
idletask: And to hell with Motif and Athena :p
Reilithion: elbows MostAwesomeDude, "See the soapbox growing out of his ankles?"
idletask: is not fluent enough in English to understand this saying - "a soapbox growing out of one's ankles"
Reilithion: Oh, I'm just humorously referencing the evangelical tone of your little rant there. From Wikipedia: A soapbox is a raised platform on which one stands to make an impromptu speech, often about a political subject.
idletask: I recall reading something along the line of that, not that long ago
idletask: lines, sorry
idletask: But anyway.... airlied says that I don't understand the problem at hand whilst I believe I understand it perfectly: legacy ;)
idletask: But legacy doesn't have a word to say in the 21st century, that's my opinion
idletask: At least, it should be an afterthought, not a goal
Reilithion: And I'm with MostAwesomeDude on that one. Round off as many bugs as possible and move on to X12
idletask: Reilithion: what bugs exactly?
Reilithion: (10:07:06 PM) MostAwesomeDude: Which we can probably get started on as soon as we close out all the current bugs. <-- Those bugs
idletask: Yeah right
idletask: What bugs?
Reilithion: Ask MostAwesomeDude
idletask: OK, in other words, then
idletask: What will X12 bring?
Reilithion: idletask: Honestly, at this point, I'm out of my league. I barely know anything about X at all. For me to speculate about X12 would be like a 2nd grader giving his opinions on the engineering specifics of the ISS.
Reilithion: Which is to say, I might have something worth considering, but probably only by accident. ;-)
idletask: Reilithion: well, tbh, so am I - but then, X dates back to 1984, and OpenGL was but an afterthought (see GLX) - it is time the graphics stack moved on
idletask: With what exists today, the means are there
idletask: Look at it this way: what, at this time, enables 3D rendering at all within X?
Reilithion: erm... the driver? and libdrm?
Reilithion: and mesa
idletask: Mesa talks to the kernel via its DRI driver, which talks to the kernel via libdrm
idletask: So, first question: why are libdrm and mesa separate at all?
Reilithion: This is a total guess: Because they have to sit on opposite sides of X in order to work?
idletask: If the answer is, "well, some other stuff might want to use libdrm", I fire back: "name one"
idletask: X has no direct dependency on libdrm
idletask: And the story doesn't end here :/
idletask: Consider the ddx
Reilithion: Ah. I see. Mesa depends on libdrm.
idletask: (fwiw, but maybe you know about that already, ddx means "Device Dependent X", and note the 'x')
Reilithion: I did not know that.
idletask: Well, xf86-video-ati, aka the ddx, is the point of this whole channel
Reilithion: You could fool me. I know way less than I ought to.
idletask: The core ddx relies on libdrm - _and not Mesa_ - to operate
Reilithion: idletask: btw, were you still installing Planeshift?
Reilithion: I noticed that in the dependencies output. xf86-video-ati depends on libdrm
idletask: No, I have too slow a bandwidth, and am installing all components necessary for the phoronix test suite to run
idletask: When I'm done with it, time for planeshift
Reilithion: ^_^ w00t
idletask: OK, to settle the matters: the ddx depends on libdrm, mesa also depends on libdrm, the X server, however, depends on _none of Mesa or libdrm_
Reilithion: It just needs a video driver.
idletask: In fact, it's just as if the whole 3D stuff was but an afterthought to the whole X design
idletask: I'm just sorry, but "WTF????"
idletask: And I'm not lying about this
idletask: I can pastebin the ldd output of all components
idletask: X not having a hard dependency on the 3d rendering engine?
Reilithion: It's not that I don't believe you.
Reilithion: I'm just trying to grok it all.
idletask: Well, history has proven plenty already that 3D was an afterthought to X
idletask: But that it still is the case in the 21st century... Tough