Radeon IRC Logs For 2009-11-14
EruditeHermit: x 1.6
soreau: I guess I could try with dri1..
soreau: This just started last week and Im trying to find someone else with the same problem
soreau: or at least know why it happens
soreau: Its more an annoyance than anything else
soreau: EruditeHermit: Thanks for testing
EruditeHermit: i'll try with dri2 when I reboot
Duskao: hello guys, I have a Radeon HD4850. Should I be using the Radeon driver or the RadeonHD driver?
Zajec2: Duskao: depends what you need
Zajec2: Duskao: radeon is... well,generally "better" whetever it means
Duskao: ok, well I'm generally trying the 3D capabilities of the video card with the drivers.
Zajec2: Duskao: radeonhd has soem nice features like HDMI and PM
Zajec2: Duskao: radeon has also PM, just not so good IMO
Duskao: So I should stick with the Radeon then?
Zajec2: Duskao: 3D does no depend on radeon/radeonhd choice
Zajec2: Duskao: any you want, really. i just preffer radeonhd for HDMI and PM and backlight, but that may mean nothing for you
Duskao: nope, I'm not using a laptop for the backlight, and I'm not using HDMI right now.
Duskao: can I install the catalyst driver over top of the Radeon Drivers even though I have the edgy PPA added?
Duskao: make that edgers PPA
Zajec2: Duskao: err, over top?
Zajec2: Duskao: you use radeon XOR radeonhd XOR fglrx
Duskao: I know that. But I mean when Ubuntu is installed it has the Radeon driver as the default does it not? Then you can install the fglrx Driver.
Zajec2: Duskao: sorry, i really know nothing about Ubuntu or fglrx
Duskao: I was just assuming I might be able to have both on my system (I know that could cause issues) and change the xorg.conf from "ati" to "fglrx" and vice versa.
Duskao: making the system use which ever I tell it to.
Duskao: perhaps it doesn't work that way.
soreau: That will not work for so many different reasons
Duskao: ok, thats why I asked before I tried it :D
soreau: General rule is if any part of fglrx is installed, the open drivers will be broken
Duskao: ok, thanks
Duskao: soreau: so is it possible to go back and forth at all then? install/uninstall fglrx to check how the Radeon drivers progress?
soreau: Not using whatever ppa stuff you have installed
soreau: fglrx is never compatible with latest kernel and x components
Duskao: yeah, they always seem to be a step or two behind.
Duskao: Thanks a lot, this is good info to know.
soreau: Not to mention for every step forward they take two steps back
soreau: Over the years the only thing fglrx has been good and consistent at is regressing
Duskao: Well, that might be entirely true, but their 3D is still a few steps ahead at this point with my vid card.
soreau: Yea we dont have GL2.1 quite yet
Duskao: You guys are doing great though.
soreau: and there is still plenty of optimizations to be done
Duskao: yep, thats true, HL2 is a slide show right now as is S.C.O.U.R.G.E.
soreau: whatever that means
soreau: I have a good feeling by time the next distro release cycle comes around next April, things will be looking pretty
Duskao: that means that about 1 frame per every 5 seconds or so with Half Life 2.
Duskao: I'll agree with you there.
Duskao: of course thats with wine.
soreau: why not use the native version? :o
Zajec2: does VRAM store it's content after powering down?
twnqx: for a split second...
Zajec2: i've some weird locks up
Zajec2: 10 a day
Zajec2: started after I tried r600 for KDE4
Zajec2: but then it's unrelated
Zajec2: hope it's just my RAM that is broken
Zajec2: hm, removing one "bone" (?) of my RAM seems to resolve problem
twnqx: call it module.
Zajec2: twnqx: thanks
rhodan: Zajec2: I call them "bars"
hifi: umm, how do I force disable opengl vsync?
hifi: driconf didn't help
Zajec2: is this possible that single KDE4's widget can lock up my machine?
Zajec: maybe with some EXA operation?
gsedej: hi! Which is the best quick test for graphics? glxgeers is not good...
Zajec: gsedej: openarena maybe?
Zajec: google for "openarena demo benchmark"
gsedej: Zajec: Its 300MB...
Zajec: am i alive?
Zajec: ok, seems to :)
uzi18: Zajec: :)
Zajec: uzi18: s2ram test ;)
Zajec: Opera didn't break IRC connection somehow
Zajec: gsedej: well, for real test you need something with advanced rendering
Zajec: gsedej: a lot of textures
uzi18: Zajec: not opera but it was standard lagg
uzi18: Zajec: this night i was launching almoust all tests form Mesa-master :P
Zajec: uzi18: passed?
Zajec: do we have dino shadow fixed?
Zajec: didn't test it for some time
uzi18: Zajec: yes but some of them are still unsupported
uzi18: Zajec: i'm using now xf86-driver-ati instread on radeonhd
Zajec: uzi18: i try to use KMS :P
Zajec: no much success... but still trying ;)
gsedej: I installed phoronix-test-suite (spent hour to enable gui, but failed :D) GLMark does not work (not even Vetrex Array)
uzi18: Zajec: looks like will be no kms for radeonhd ;/
Zajec: uzi18: yup, no reason to do that
uzi18: and it is porblem
Zajec: uzi18: it would be probably identical to radeon's KMS
uzi18: Xorg just hang on after launch ;/ and have insmoded radeon with mode_set=1
Zajec: uzi18: ?
uzi18: this is why i'have moved to ati
Zajec: uzi18: do you mean hang when starting X on KMS?
Zajec: ah, some other issue
uzi18: Zajec: yes
Zajec: but don't understand
Zajec: do you mean you've moved to ati non-kms?
uzi18: no from radeonhd to ati ;)
Zajec: because with KMS you have to use ati (radeon) anyway
Zajec: uzi18: ah, that's "expected" that starting X with radeonhd on KMS will give bad effects :)
uzi18: but radeonhd need workaround for this issue
uzi18: it will be pain for users
Zajec: uzi18: ?what pain? want KMS => use radeon
uzi18: Zajec: ok but user have insmoded radeon with kms (as it is almost mature)
Baivan: i know this may sound as a stupid question,but how to check wich graphic-driver im using?
uzi18: and launch X with radeonhd driver = hang
Zajec: kms mature... ? er
Zajec: Baivan: there are two kinds of drivers: 2D driver and 3D driver
uzi18: Zajec: works for me without issues
Zajec: Baivan: for 2D driver check your /var/log/Xorg.0.log (this can be radeon==ati or radeonhd for ATI cards)
Zajec: Baivan: for 3D drvier check glxinfo
uzi18: Zajec: i'm on all master gits kernel-zen, libdrm, Mesa, ddx ati
Zajec: glxinfo | grep OpenGL renderer string
Zajec: glxinfo | grep "OpenGL renderer string"
uzi18: driinfo ? :P
Baivan: so 2D is radeon and 3d is mesa
uzi18: Baivan: correct
uzi18: need restart :P
Baivan: is the Xfree86 better then mesa ?
uzi18: Zajec: direct rendering: No (If you want to find out why, try setting LIBGL_DEBUG=verbose)
Baivan: for an mobilyti radeon 9600
gsedej: Baivan: i have 9600m :P
Baivan: gsedej: wich driver u using for 3d?
gsedej: default on ubuntu 9.10 mesa 7.6
gsedej: xserver-xorg-video-ati 1:6.12.99
gimzo1: Baivan: Xfree86 is not a driver
Ingmar: Does the r600 driver need libdrm from agd5f/master, or is that only if I want experimental 3D for r600?
spreeuw: not sure at this point
spreeuw: about the lib
lagnus: help pls, http://pastebin.com/d621e0148
spreeuw: the kernel module must be the developement one
chithead: Ingmar: only use git master, do not use any branches or other repositories
spreeuw: or the 32 rc
lagnus: it is relation to kernel mode setting not working on my radeon 3200 HD using the git repositories
lagnus: i followed these installation instructions http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=79509
gsedej: is radeon driver using Gallium3D?
mjr: not the usual one, no
lagnus: so was just wondering if anyone can tell me if my card still isnt supported from the latest git
mjr: there's some ongoing work for r300g
lagnus: or if I made a mistake somewhere
chithead: gsedej: if you compile mesa with the right configure options, you will get gallium3d
adamk_: Baivan: Were you able to get things working yesterday after we talked?
Baivan: o yeah
Baivan: 2D improoved allot
gsedej: chithead: so I would get better performance in 3D?
chithead: gsedej: I don't know how you associate gallium3d with better performance
Baivan: adamk_:and i eaven updated my ports tree
adamk_: Woohoo :-)
gsedej: chithead: its newer :)
adamk_: Theoretically gallium3d could give better performance once it's complete, but that's quite a ways out.
gimzo1: gsedej: it's not yet finished
gsedej: ok :)
chithead: at present it will perform worse and support less 3d features
gimzo1: when we're at features, there's been some talk on phoronix about glsl working on r300, what's with that ?
chithead: see http://wiki.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature for what works and what not
gimzo1: so that is the current status ?
lagnus: any help ?
lordheavy: lagnus: got it working with kms under archlinux with a 4200 HD (but without gallium driver) and it's working pretty well
lordheavy: with kernel-git too
lagnus: lordheavy, have you seen the two pages i linked to earlier ? What did you do differently?
gsedej: can someone explain me, why glxgeers is not good benchmark?
chithead: gsedej: it is the first hit if you google for "glxgears is not a benchmark"
lordheavy: not read, i've installed mesa-git (and git stuff) with this PKGBUILD http://pastebin.fr/5997
lordheavy: kernel-git (for 2.6.32-rc7) is useful to get proper DRM
osiris: agd5f: can you tell me if any of the TX_FILTER1_x reserved bits affect mipmap filtering quality?
gsedej: which benchmark do you use to test (R300)?
Ingmar: chithead: okay, thanks
adamk_: prefers openarena for benchmarking.
lordheavy: not tested Xreal.....
lagnus: lordheavy, ok compile kernel from git. i used drm-next before
adamk_: So when I tried 'git pull airlied_drm_remote drm-next' there were some conflicts in intel_display.c and intel_sdvo.c. Anyone know how to resolve them so I can get on drm-next?
lordheavy: not needed for me with the last kernel
lagnus: adamk_, posting those conflicts to pastbin and then posting the link here would help
adamk_: I'm not particularly familiar with git. All it said was that those files had conflicts. How do I get mor einformation on them?
unimatrix: hokay, so i've tested the UT2004 game for R700 and wanted to submit the results to your wiki, but it wont let me
unimatrix: could somebody submit it instead?
adamk_: None of the developers seem to be around at the moment.
unimatrix: well, whenever someone gets back, i'll be here all day :p
lagnus: lordheavy, thx for you help
lordheavy: i'm on #archlinux too if you need some help to build them
uzi18: adamk_: use kernel-zen :)
Zajec: think about discovering kernel bug :|
adamk_: Umm, yeah, I'd rather not.
adamk_: But, out of curiousity, how recent is drm-next in kernel-zen?
Zajec: can executing "dmesg" in loop cause any problem?
lordheavy: ttm segfault with mesa from git/kernel from git with openarena running fullscreen with kde4 and opengl desktop effects and 4200 HD chipset (no gallium) http://pastebin.fr/5998
gsedej: can someone tell me which if mesa-demos are good benchmarks and which of them?
adamk_: I doubt any of them are really good benchmars at performance. They are probably mostly used to demonstrate or test certain features and extensions.
Zajec: adamk: ++
adamk_: If you really want to benchmark, I suggest taking a look a this page and using one or more of the suggested items: http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/Benchmarking
dileX_: adamk_: unfortunately, there are files no longer downloadable and some URLs are dead.
adamk_: Yeah, anholt needs to replace his demos.
dileX: not only this
adamk_: But you can download the openarena files here: http://adam.npark.com/anholt.cfg http://adam.npark.com/anholt.dm_68
dileX: the radar demo for enemy-territory is not available and I didnt found it in the big WWW
dileX: I have that files already and did offer it here from my webspace
dileX: in general I would be pleased about a "standardized" benchmark which is "comparable" on the own machine and with others
adamk_: Then create one :-)
dileX: everyone is laughing at phoronix
dileX: they have a testsuite
dileX: but I didnt test
adamk_: Is it better than their reporting?
gimzo1: dileX: I think phoronix testsuite is the only "standardized" benchmark
dileX: and its not only benchmarking, I lack also about informations on "this software/game is good for testing this/these feature(s)"
bjacques: Is the following code "legal"? :
bjacques: glReadPixels(0, 0, 100, 100, GL_RGB, GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE, buf);
spreeuw: dileX: I think open arena would be a good benchmark
spreeuw: for a general raw performance idea
bjacques: in particular, having GL_TEXTURE_2D enabled during this operation, which causes r300 to segfault.
spreeuw: replacing glxgears
spreeuw: but it requires cooperation of the openarena dev
dileX: spreeuw: I think OA is one favorite OSS game to test with
spreeuw: to build in a fixed config and demo
spreeuw: and a script to loop through 3 resolutions or so
dileX: and anholt has a benchmark-demo for that
gimzo1: how can you replace 20kb glxgears with 300mb oa ?
spreeuw: yeah except that that demo hasnt worked for years
spreeuw: its not compatible with the past years engine
spreeuw: 300MB is peanuts
gimzo1: not on liveCD
dileX: I dont know if you need all the data delivered with OA
jcristau: gimzo1: how can you expect a 20kb trivial app to be a useful/representative benchmark?
dileX: maybe it would be good to have a OA with anholts stuff
spreeuw: one of the glxgears clones are better though
gimzo1: I don't expect it to be representative, I just expect it to show me if the drivers are working :)
spreeuw: the one where you can pick the number of cogs and stuff
dileX: a "reduced" OA - but as I said I am not a gambler.
spreeuw: but i dot think it uses any textures
dileX: I only start these games for testing drm-radeon-kms
adamk_: gimzo1: It doesn't even do that well.
kdekorte: on my machine glxgears in software is 1000fps with hardware 2000fps
spreeuw: her 125 fps
spreeuw: with hw accel
spreeuw: depending on the window size
dileX: and parallelly radeon-gallium (with diverse state-trackers) with knowing gallium3d is very experimental technology
twnqx: here 22000 in default size :>
twnqx: oh my, it's cpu bound?
spreeuw: which type of glxgears do you use?
spreeuw: there are multiple programs called this way
spreeuw: with multiple versions
twnqx: pets his gtx285
dileX: spreeuw: thats a good point - with which software components (kernel, libdrm, mesa, ddx, xserver) do ppl test.
spreeuw: that too
spreeuw: you need those versions
spreeuw: the application version
dileX: what IMHO would be a fine thing is a "benchmark results" and a data-field/comment which describes the system of the tester
kdekorte: I use stock fedora 12, except mesa, I use that from git
spreeuw: and the exact CPU type
spreeuw: and actually also the chipset and ram
spreeuw: if you're going to gather info in some table
spreeuw: and the kernel cpu settings
twnqx: so a 285gtx is about 12times as fast as a mobility radeon hd 3650
spreeuw: many use powersaving scaling which severely hampers performance
twnqx: i don't see a difference between 1.6ghz and 2.6ghz
spreeuw: twnqx: no experience with nvidia sry
spreeuw: twnqx: what application did you use to compare?
spreeuw: and which drivers
twnqx: the pure glxgears from mesa
spreeuw: the closed drivers dont count
twnqx: uh, they do
spreeuw: no ;p
twnqx: fglrx doesn't count as it fails to enable my screen
spreeuw: might as well run windows if you dont care
spreeuw: its a superior desktop
spreeuw: in all but the license department
twnqx: windows as an absolutely unusable gui
dileX: the published "benchmark results" shall document the approach in the development
dileX: or can
twnqx: click to focus, autoraise on focus
spreeuw: yeah the default wm behaviour of windows sucks
twnqx: => unusable
twnqx: also, no win+r + typing to lauch apps
twnqx: or generally, to mouse-focused
twnqx: also, no decent media players
twnqx: come on
twnqx: vlc is... junk
spreeuw: my moms w2k has mplayer
twnqx: mine has mpc-hc
spreeuw: junk? lol
twnqx: also i hate windows with a passion
twnqx: i have one where i'm clicking a 100 tiems a day "do not fucking reboot" for days now
spreeuw: at home I use floss only
twnqx: also i hate if a computer asks "do you want me to do what you just told me to do"
spreeuw: for apps and os, do play the occasional closed commercial game on it
twnqx: for me the advantage of foss is limited to the fact that i can fix the bugs myself once they annoy me too much
solf0r: does the radeon driver support kms yet?
chithead: there is no release that supports kms. you have to build git master
solf0r: how do i do that?
adamk: solf0r: Check the wiki in the topic.
chithead: either check if packages already exist for your distro (ubuntu ppa, fedora rawhide, gentoo x11 overlay, etc.) exist, or git clone and build manually
solf0r: xorg edgers ppa just reverts to software rast if you enable kms even with 2.6.32 rc7
chithead: probably because libdrm_radeon or somesuch is missing
chithead: the packages in ubuntu 9.10 release are kms capable already
chithead: (for <=r500)
solf0r: im using an x1250 which is r470 i think
hifi: chithead: yes there is a release that supports kms
solf0r: what is it?
hifi: ubuntu 9.10 does
hifi: does that count as a release?
hifi: x1250 sounds like rv5xx
uzi18: Zajec: have dri again :P
chithead: x1250 is rs690. the packages that ubuntu 9.10 ships are fine. just make sure that the radeon kernel module is loaded with modeset=1 parameter
solf0r: i have tried and it reverts to soft rast with kms enabled
chithead: solf0r: do you have libdrm_radeon installed?
solf0r: radeon.modeset=1 yeah?
chithead: also check Xorg.0.log
adamk: solf0r: We'd really need to see the log file to tell you what's going on.
solf0r: how doi get that?
solf0r: do i *
chithead: either radeon.modeset=1 kernel parameter or options radeon modeset=1 in /etc/modprobe.d
solf0r: tried that and thats when if falls back to soft rast like ai already said :P
solf0r: where is that log file stored?
uzi18: solf0r: yes
uzi18: solf0r: paste this file somethere
adamk: Just not in here :-)
hifi: btw. anyone else than osiris have patches for mesa that might improve some performance on rv570 and need testing?
chithead: put Xorg.0.log in a pastebin and give the link here
solf0r: lol ok
hifi: and does r300g work at all yet?
solf0r: are you talking to me?
uzi18: solf0r: heh you have got vesa driver ;/ ?
adamk: That log file is with KMS enabled?
adamk: Because it shows that DRI is enabled.
chithead: hifi: it works but it is slower and has less features than classic mesa still
solf0r: im running on...
solf0r: hold on
hifi: chithead: worth testing out on kms?
uzi18: solf0r: You need kernel 2.6.32 rc6/7
adamk: rnoland: All the DRM changes for r6xx/r7xx are in -CURRENT only, correct?
uzi18: solf0r: libdrm latest
solf0r: OpenGL vendor string: DRI R300 Project
solf0r: OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI R300 (RS600 7942) 20090101 x86/MMX/SSE2 NO-TCL
solf0r: OpenGL version string: 1.5 Mesa 7.6
solf0r: OpenGL extensions:
solf0r: i have that kernel
solf0r: libdrm latest?
chithead: hifi: depends on what are your expectations
solf0r: i don't undertand xorg
chithead: solf0r: you have not kms enabled in that log
solf0r: so many pieces O____0
solf0r: i know
uzi18: solf0r: just 3 of these
hifi: chithead: run quake perhaps?
solf0r: i disabled it because it fell back to softrast for desktop effects
uzi18: solf0r: kernel,libdrm, xorg-driver-ati
adamk: solf0r: We need to see the log file from when you were using KMS.
solf0r: shall i enable it now and reboot?
adamk: solf0r: Otherwise we can't tell you why KMS causes you to use the software rasterizer :-)
uzi18: solf0r: just enable it and restart X ;D
solf0r: shall i install the latest xorg edgers packages again too?
chithead: hifi: even if it works properly (which I am not sure of) it will be slower than classic mesa
hifi: classic mesa you mean *classic* mesa or kms?
chithead: classic mesa works with kms or without
uzi18: solf0r: dont know what You have :P
solf0r: ill add the packages brb :D
hifi: chithead: I have bad performance with half-life and I'm hoping for any improvements, disabling multitexturing boots up fps though
chithead: before gallium reaches feature and perfomance parity some time will still pass
hifi: chithead: what do I need to test out r300g, just --with-gallium the current mesa tree?
chithead: enable gallium, gallium-radeon and dri state tracker at least
solf0r_: kms enabled with xserver 1.6.5
solf0r_: OpenGL vendor string: Mesa Project
solf0r_: OpenGL renderer string: Software Rasterizer
solf0r_: OpenGL version string: 2.1 Mesa 7.7-devel
solf0r_: OpenGL shading language version string: 1.20
solf0r_: OpenGL extensions:
adamk: Please use pastebin for more than a few lines.
adamk: And now pastebin your /var/log/Xorg.0.log file.
solf0r_: sorry i copied more than i meant too
lagnus: what kind of performance boost are we looking at here ?
lagnus: for using kms i mean
hifi: lagnus: none yet
hifi: it's actually a bit slower than without
lagnus: hifi, you imply that there will be at some point
lagnus: hifi, or was that hope that they will improve it/
chithead: solf0r_: the drm failed to initialize. probably some error will be reported to dmesg. pastebin that too
lagnus: me too
adamk: (II) [KMS] drm report modesetting isn't supported.
solf0r_: wheres that ?
solf0r_: it is enabled
lagnus: lol kernel-git has been compiling for about an hour now
solf0r_: when i ctrl+alt+f1
lagnus: thank god for dual core
solf0r_: i get bothing but black
hifi: the driver doesn't utilize the hardware fully yet nor it's optimized (yet), it'll get faster in the future I hope
solf0r_: that only ever happens with kms enabled
adamk: solf0r_: What's the output of 'cat /proc/fb' ?
solf0r_: that a terminal command?
adamk: You definitely should be getting more than a black screen if everything is working fine.
adamk: solf0r_: Yes, any sort of terminal.
solf0r_: ok i get colors now
solf0r_: not pure black
lagnus: hifi, well i am sure it will be fine until then
solf0r_: it just goes to prompt
chithead: could be that you don't have framebuffer console enabled
lagnus: that is the usual lifecycle, the same goes with evolution lol
lagnus: but hey those boneless fish with pressurized oil that are believed to be one of our earliest ancestors are still around and kicking
lagnus: well swimming
adamk: solf0r_: 'cat /proc/fb' didn't display anything? Yeah, then there's some quite wrong.
adamk: Unfortunately I have no experience with Ubuntu for the last year, so I have no idea what they are or aren't doing.
solf0r_: should it have the quotations?
chithead: if fbcon was built as module, make sure that it is loaded
solf0r_: whats the point in kms anyway?
rnoland: adamk: should be in -current, 7-stable and 8-stable now
rnoland: too many branches going now....
adamk: rnoland: Oh, excellent. Thanks. I told someone earlier that I thought -current was necessary, but that it might be in 8-stable. I'll let him know.
adamk: Oh, I should clarify... Does that include 3D support?
rnoland: adamk: yes, all of the -stable branches are mostly in sync now
rnoland: 3d is not in rc3
solf0r_: when is opengl 2.x gonna be supported by xf86-video-ati?
bridgman: gl 2.x support would be in mesa not -ati
BeerSerc: Hi there. Are there any chipsets with onboard graphics which work stable with the radeon driver right now?
solf0r_: well whatever lol
solf0r_: all the parts confuse me )___o
solf0r_: mine is pretty stable beer
solf0r_: do you mean 3d?
bridgman: I don't think there's a date but all the bits are being worked on
BeerSerc: solf0r_: which chipset do you have
BeerSerc: sorry, I mean onboard chipsets
solf0r_: that is an onboard chip
bridgman: x1250 is onboard, isn't it (graphics in the northbridge)
BeerSerc: need to buy a mb for my fathers pc and it should work with ubuntu or something
chithead: x1250 is rs690 igp
solf0r_: i thought is was r470?
chithead: which has rv410 3d core (minus hardware tcl), iirc
solf0r_: whats the difference?
solf0r_: no tcl? O___0
solf0r_: i didnt know that
bridgman: rs400/480 (aka Xpress 1100/200) have rv3xx core
bridgman: rs600/690 (aka X1200/1250) have rc410 core
BeerSerc: hm, but they are not sold anymore right?
chithead: you don't need hardware tcl anyway
solf0r_: its equivalent to x700 if i remember
bridgman: rs780/790 have rv610 core
BeerSerc: so theres no mb out there which just works with radeon?
bridgman: rs880 aka 785 have rv620 core
solf0r_: how do you man works?
chithead: BeerSerc: the die-shrunk rs690 is called rs740 and is still on sale
bridgman: anything with a 690 aka X12xx should work completely out of box
solf0r_: it does
solf0r_: except 3d is pretty crap
bridgman: I would go with 780 aka HD3200 which will work pretty well out of box but which will be better going forward
chithead: tv out maybe not
solf0r_: no offence :P
chithead: rs690 is slow by today's standards. for compiz/kwin desktop effects it is sufficient though
bridgman: tvout is worth mentioning; still struggling with tvout on igp parts IIRC
solf0r_: it can still play some games on windows pretty well
solf0r_: spore wow etc...
BeerSerc: chithead: bridgman I dont need tv out nor crazy 3d stuff, basically office stuff
solf0r_: it will owrk great for that
solf0r_: the 2d is great :)
chithead: BeerSerc: go with rs780 (radeon 3200 igp) or newer
chithead: solf0r_: the wine support in the open source driver is still very bad
solf0r_: playing wow is impossible
chithead: the rs780 is an order of magnitude faster than rs690
BeerSerc: so something like http://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/a353506.html
BeerSerc: that asus board?
solf0r_: if hes dosent want 3d then theres no point
BeerSerc: solf0r_: I dont need much 3d
solf0r_: 2d on an 9550 would be fine
BeerSerc: may be possible my father wants google earth sometimes
chithead: BeerSerc: would work, but you will bite yourself later if you buy ddr2 mobo today
solf0r_: then go with what the other dude said :D
BeerSerc: chithead: it's not for me ... it's for my father, so the difference between ddr2 and ddr3 would only be the price
solf0r_: when will the opso driver work better with wine?
BeerSerc: chithead: and all the am3 boards have chipsets 785, is that equivalently working?
lordheavy: yes got an 785G (4200 HD) and it's working
chithead: BeerSerc: 785g is the successor to 780g, it is a bit faster and equally well supported
chithead: solf0r_: I think wine is pretty low priority still
BeerSerc: OK. then I'll go for one of those, and if ubuntu is not shiny with it, I will come and smack you with the board! ;)
solf0r_: ok then when will mesasupport opengl 2 for the opso driver?
solf0r_: mesa support
bridgman: when it's done, but people are working on it
solf0r_: no more vista then :D
chithead: solf0r_: it will probably still take a few months
bridgman: richard got the rest of the flow control instructions working yesterday (ie subroutines) and we're hoping to push that some time around the end of next week
lordheavy: BeerSec got this one http://fr.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=fcsXWSxnhzZE9rnR&templete=2
Ghworg: Is the plan to write glsl support for classic mesa, or is that only going in to gallium?
bridgman: I think it will go into classic mesa as well
solf0r_: is gallium ever gonna be released? the r300 3d driver is ready for that isnt it?
bridgman: I think people are working on getting it ready to replace the classic mesa driver but it's not quite there yet
bridgman: lots of activity in the last few weeks though
solf0r_: lol thi is why xorg confuses me mesa xf86-xxxxx gallium libdrm kms O.O
solf0r_: this is*
BeerSerc: lordheavy: I need ps2 mouse and keyboard support ... but thanks
bridgman: go Corbin
bridgman: solf0r; there are only a few parts; the tricky thing is that nearly all of them are being rearchitected at the same time, so there are a lot of different *combinations* being discussed right now
bridgman: 2 years ago it was simple, and a year from now it will be simple
solf0r_: why the confusion?
bridgman: I wouldn't call it confusion; just the challenge of shifting all the components to a completely new architecture while keeping things working for users
solf0r_: i still dont get it
bridgman: so you end up with transitional changes, eg the radeon_rewrite effort which let mesa work with both old (DRI1) and new (GEM/TTM/KMS/DRI2) kernel drivers (drm)
bridgman: do you know what the main components do ? If not it will be confusing
solf0r_: i dont undertans that either
lordheavy: BeerSec, there is ps2/usb adaptators, i've got one everytime i buy a new mouse !
hifi: I'm profiling half-life slowdowns, what would be the library of interest where I should look for slow calls?
BeerSerc: lordheavy: wrong way
BeerSerc: you get adaptors to connect usb mice to ps2
BeerSerc: but not to connect ps2 mice to usb
bridgman: ok, there are three main components - the X driver (aka DDX, ie -ati or -radeonhd)
bridgman: the 3D driver (aka mesa)
bridgman: and the kernel driver (aka drm)
solf0r_: no mnesa=no 3d
BeerSerc: but I think I found something, asrock board with 785 chipset, hd4200
lordheavy: http://www.ldlc.com/fiche/PB00037570.html in french sorry
BeerSerc: with ide and floppy and ps2 ...
bridgman: the X driver handles 2D and simple video playback
solf0r_: slightly clearer :D
solf0r_: yeah unlike the flgrz driver
BeerSerc: lordheavy: I know they exist
solf0r_: useless *****
bridgman: both X driver and mesa driver go through the kernel driver (drm) to access the acceleration hardware
solf0r_: the x driver being xf86-video-ati?
bridgman: fglrx is actually structured almost exactly the same way, the only difference is that we wrap an installer around all the components to make it easier for users
bridgman: yes; -ati or -radeonhd
solf0r_: flgrx sucks
bridgman: so... 2 years ago the X driver accessed hardware directly for modesetting (ie programming the display portion of the chip), and owned all the memory on the video card
solf0r_: the dram?
bridgman: this made sense back when 2D was the main focus but was a problem for system security and for advanced 3d
bridgman: yep, although normally called vram (video ram) - it is dram though
solf0r_: is that why xserver will soon be rootless?
bridgman: just faster and more expensive ;)
bridgman: yep; kernel modesetting moves the display hardware control from the X driver into the kernel, so the X driver just makes API calls into the kernel
bridgman: so it doesn't need root privileges to access hw any more
solf0r_: isnt that more dangerous?
bridgman: ok, so that's KMS
bridgman: depends what you mean by dangerous; bad code with root privileges is always dangerous
bridgman: whether it's in the kernel or in an X driver
bridgman: moving it into the kernel makes it easier to write good code 'cause it's all in one place
solf0r_: yeah malicious code can go straight for the kernel?
solf0r_: anyway lol nvm that
bridgman: it also lets console and X use the same driver code
solf0r_: i dont undertans that
bridgman: right now X has a driver, console has a driver, directfb has a driver, and if you're very lucky they all get along
bridgman: when you do a vt switch you're handing control from one driver to another, written by different people with different assumptions
solf0r_: so kms unifies them?
solf0r_: oh i see
Ghworg: One driver to rule them all, one driver to bind them
bridgman: next is memory management - GEM/TTM moves ownership of vram from the X driver into the kernel
solf0r_: thats good?
bridgman: makes it easier to share info efficiently between X and 3D efficiently, and provides the memory manager support required for things like VBOs, FBOs etc (the nice stuff people want in OpenGL)
bridgman: basically if you want OpenGL 2.x support you really need GEM/TTM
solf0r_: thank you
solf0r_: now it makes slightly more sense :_
bridgman: not finished yet ;)
bridgman: Mesa has been around for a decade or more, and it has a standard API for hardware drivers
bridgman: inside the Mesa tree there are a bunch of drivers for different GPUs
solf0r_: mesa is 3d yes?
bridgman: so the Mesa driver is different from the X driver, even though they both do acceleration and both use the same graphics hardware these days (3D engine is used for 2D and video as well)
solf0r_: and gallium will repace it?
bridgman: Gallium3D is a new API which will hopefully allow the same driver to be used for 2D, 3D and video acceleration
solf0r_: so gallium ati will replace mesa and xf86-video?
bridgman: that means (a) gallium3D drivers need to be written, (b) the Mesa and Xorg drivers need to be modified to call Gallium3D rather than hitting the hardware directly
bridgman: parts of each, yes
solf0r_: i still dont really get that
bridgman: the gallium r300g driver will replace the current mesa r300 driver but most of mesa will still be there
bridgman: remember that mesa is about a million lines of code and the r300 driver is only 20-30 thousand
solf0r_: isn't mesa outdated though?
bridgman: when people talk about it being outdated they're talking about the API between the upper levels of mesa and the hw drivers
bridgman: that API is really outdated since GPUs have changed so much
Pulsewidth: Does KMS automatically chose the EDID recommended mode? And if the EDID mode is wrong how do I specifiy my own modeline?
solf0r_: ok i think
adamk: Pulsewidth: Yes, it quieries the monitor.
bridgman: the Gallium3D driver API replaces the old mesa hw driver API, but most of mesa is still there
bridgman: OpenGL drivers are really big and complicated
solf0r_: for fallback?
adamk: Pulsewidth: If it's wrong, or you want to specify another mode, you can use video=DVI-0:mode when loading the radeon module.
bridgman: nope, most of the work is still done in the upper levels of mesa
Pulsewidth: adamk: thanks
bridgman: the HW drivers just handle the HW-specific bits
adamk: Pulsewidth: That apparently requires drm-next at the moment, though. I'd like to test it myself, but have been unable to do so.
soreau: has tested and knows it works
bridgman: so rather than mesa -> old hw driver -> drm we move to mesa -> gallium3d hw driver -> drm
Pulsewidth: What's the format for "mode"?
bridgman: now, take a deep breath
bridgman: KMS moved modesetting into the kernel
soreau: Alternatively you can put video=